A house divided against itself cannot stand.

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In practice, I just do not see the difference between Democrats and Republicans that you seem to. As for a house divided.....The Democrat Party is marxist to moderate socilaist. The Republican Party socialist to moderate socialist. *What you do is what you are, not what you say.

Still....A very interesting post!

*lightfoot letters

Interesting reading...I do just not see the difference between the Democrat Party and the Republican Party that you seem to. The Democrat Party is marxist to moderate socialist. The Republican Party is socialist to moderate socialist. *What you do is what you are, not what you say.

*lightfoot letters

might be a duplicate post

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It's good to see some sanity. You don't post enough.

It is amazing to me to see basic conservative and liberal principles thrown out to make way for political rhetoric.

I think the reason so many people are critical of Obama (myself included) is that he is proving to be no different than any other politician while presenting himself as a principled civil servant. Thus his constant back sliding from stands of principle is notable. My wife is still an Obama supporter however for his stated aims in his books to return to the principles the country was founded on which is something that I can guess from your posts that you would also appreciate. But do you buy that message? I don't, and so as usual I won't be voting Democrat - not until we have Ranked Choice Voting in National Elections.

McCain has shown little effort to distance himself from Bush Admin's policy and its monster - the unitary executive - despite a political past at odds with the president and his policies. I see this as dangerous, and so he's to me also a bad choice made worse by his endorsement of Bush foreign policy.

I am not unlike Joseph Heller in seeing the pointlessness of Presidential Elections - especially when it comes to the issues you've outlined above about a house divided amidst erosion of civil liberties as well as the balance of power between our branches of gov't.

Kenneth Clark in his series on Civilisation (it is a Book as well as a Documentary) often came back to the theme of confidence. He believed that Civilisations that lose their confidence fall apart. And by that he meant confidence in the Civilization as opposed to any particular individual's self-confidence. That is the danger of terrorism. It strikes at our "glue". And yet what that means is that our fear of Terrorism causes just as much harm as any plane flown into a building - nor does our state of fear make us any better prepared to prevent this from happening again. Of course this is an argument of the US's left directed against the hardliners - those who depend upon Republican voters. I see again and again on these boards as well self-proclaimed right wingers raking "liberals" over the coals for a similar crime - Anti-Americanism or Anti-Patriotism etc... which if true would signify a serious lack of confidence in America on the left.

Its very interesting that each "side" has the same interest, but uses it to attack the "other".
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Sorry to take so long getting back here.

You ask,

Thus his constant back sliding from stands of principle is notable. My wife is still an Obama supporter however for his stated aims in his books to return to the principles the country was founded on which is something that I can guess from your posts that you would also appreciate. But do you buy that message?
I'm afraid I don't believe that he does, in fact, constantly backslide. On FISA and retro-active immunity, he has more than backslid. He has caved and he is just dead wrong to have done so. I will not defend him on this issue. He's wrong and if I can pressure him to change I will, and have tried.

But having said that, I find the rest of the "rush to the center"/"move to the right"/"flip-flop" narrative to be entirely unconvincing. One of the place that I post Vox Libertas is over at the Daily Kos, and over there, someone posted a diary that I agree with and have been pointing people to: "Obama, the flip-flopper? Give me a break". I recommend following the link and reading the befre and after quotes. I had a shorter similar list I was putting together, but this one does a very nice job.

Obama was like my 4th or 5th pick among the primary candidates. He's too hawkish fr my tastes, for instance. But I like several things about him. His stand on taking PAC and lobbyist money and the fact that he has taken stands all along that are not entirely popular in his party suggest to me that he actually has the principles we would like to see.

Examples are his agreement with the Supreme Court in turning out the Washington DC anti-handgun law. Since I believe the first shots of the Revolution were over the Right To Bear Cannons/Weapons of War in private hands, he doesn't go far enough for me, but as a Constitutional Law specialist, you would expect him to have to recognize the second ammendment and he does. And did before.

Another example is the whole "Faith Based Initiative" thing. He started both his politica careere and his religious life as a community organizer working with churches. How can anybody have missed his belief in the power and importance of faith based organizations as a tool for social justice? He has never made a secret of it, nor of his belief that the Democrats should welcome and even court people of faith and be willing to talk about their faith and its role in their lives.

He has said these things all along and still won support on the left. You might ask why the right tries to paint this man, who is a moderate on gun control, church and state, and abortion rights, and who they were criticizing for being too militaristic in his stance on Pakistan, advocating actions that Bush took 6 months later, as "the most liberal senator".

I am well and fully sick of Obama- and Clinton-supporters who refuse to vote for the other when they are probably the two primary candidates with the closest political views, Obama being just a smidge to the right of Hillary. And I am really sick of lefties who think it is cute to call the other side names rather than addressing issues, but at the moment, the so-called "right", the neo-con Republicans are doing a much sleazier job of lying about the other side than Obama's people, and McCain is "flip-flopping" far more wildly and far more often.

I have jope, which may prove vain, that Obama has some integrity. I have lost that hope for both the Republicans in general and McCain in particular.

First off:

might be a duplicate post

My fault. Apparently your comment needed to be approved and I got distracted away from here. I've approved both. I can delete the first if you like. I kept them cuz the wording was a little different and I didn't want to choose for you.

Interesting reading...I do just not see the difference between the Democrat Party and the Republican Party that you seem to. The Democrat Party is marxist to moderate socialist. The Republican Party is socialist to moderate socialist. *What you do is what you are, not what you say.

Umm... There certainly is a bit of socialism there, but nothing compared to the Europeans.

The Republicans, speaking of the rank and file tend to still be fairly conservative and to believe in the conservative values I cited. The party leadership and the current administration, on the other hand are corporatist authoritarians of a sufficiently virulent strain to match the textbook definition of "fascist" as used by the original fascisti. Their scare tactics seem to be pulling the real conservatives to supporting them for the sake of party unity and the security of the state using standard corporatist authoriitarian tactics.

Both parties seem to be fairly fully in the grips of corporatist lobbies and special interest gropsu. I have hopes for the grassroots, the netroots and a few young or dedicated individuals, but they get shaken and disappinted fairly often.

Still, what's a guy to do. Let it go completely to pot and wait to water the tree of liberty, feeding it its natural manure? I'd rather not.


[this is good]

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Brons

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Brons
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